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Vanadis

Why is TTS misrepresenting Circle Strat so much?

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I feel like half the commanders leading DS have no idea what they are talking about when they try to explain why we don't use circle strat ex:

 

1. Its not as fast as doing group strat.

This is completely wrong, circle strat only takes as long as it takes all 3 towers to kill the boss which is roughly the same if not faster than group strat because you have 10 people kililng the boss instead of 5 and there is no coordination required between the 3 towers, you kill your boss as fast as possible then keep circling till the other towers do the same.  Not only that but it takes like 10 minutes at the start of each run for group strat to set up group so if you add that time in group strat is never going to be faster.  PUGs using circle strat start the map the instant it opens.

 

2. Mordrem overrunning the circle runners because they keep spawning.

This only happens when the three towers haven't split the players on the map properly, and Ive personally never had it happen in 10+ runs with circle strat.

 

3. Mordrem scale too high using circle strat

This also isn't true, you get like 1 or 2 champs and maybe 3-4 elites at each pod, nothing that can stop people from doing what they are suppose to do.  This problem also isn't just a circle strat problem.  Scaling stalkers and snipers at all in group strat will wipe a pod group before they can react.

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You are correct, any open world event isn't made to prepare you for raids. But if you have the mentality of zerging down a mob because you are losing control of the situation, then that's deteriorating your ability to control the situation. 

 

My reason for not using circle strategy is because I don't know how to use it.

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Okay, see this is one of the problems.  Circle strat is not something you are suppose to fall back on once another strat goes bad.  You are suppose to start out with it, and it is very important to the strat that you do so.  A quick explanation of circle strat.  Before you enter the room you split into 2 tags really fast, one tag is the zerg and the other tag has 10 people.  The tag with 10 people kills the Pods and then the boss.  The zerg tag runs around and kills the preservers and only the preservers.  It is important that they do it this way because it keeps the preservers on a timer where they spawn right as you reach that point in the circle as you run around.

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-these are my own very sleepy opinions- 

 

Personally, I believe the strategy we are using now is going to be superior. It may be slow right now because people are learning, but in time once people get down what is going on, it is going to be much much faster. You state in point 3 that even a good group will wipe, but it is not true. I've had multiple examples of 30+ min fights were all three groups kept the preservers down before they could spawn a pod thing. They did not wipe once. If people listen and pay attention, the towers can very easily take less than 5 mins, and most of that will be coming from waiting for the initial pods to get destroyed. Right now it is just a learning process and it will get better as more people get experience. The circle strat is already at its full potential and has no real room for improvement unlike the method we are using. You are kind of comparing apples and oranges when you state that one is better than the other. You have to think about how effective it will be when we can execute it as planed, and not examine it in its current state.

 

Its kind of like going to Teq. Pug groups still stand in the single damage areas and the north turrets are also unable to support their zerg, so their runs take much longer. I have nothing against pug groups and the method they use works, but it is slower and causes more frustration (those map chats can get ugly sometimes!) Again, as people learn the strategy we are trying to teach, things will go smoother and runs will start getting quicker. The boss has only been out for a short time, and I personally think it is better to have people learn a faster and more efficient method rather than settling for a slow method.

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To address this without going into too many words, it is preference. 

 

Circle Strat is a valid strategy.  I personally do recognize as such.  If I am on a map that is not organized by TTS then I am more than fine going with the flow and doing it.  However, if we take the time to organize a map and decide to use Group Split strategy, then let us.  The main thing that we want is for others to respect the fact that we want to use other strategies other than Circle Strat.  One of the things we focus on in TTS is using strategies that involve communicating and working together in a comprehensive manner.  We do not feel that Circle Strat fits into this ideology.

 

We do not force maps that we haven't organized to use Circle Strat, so in return we ask that people who decide to come or stay on our map to respect our wishes to use an alternate strategy.  On several occasion, TTS leaders have been harassed and disrespected publicly and via whispers about not using Circle Strat.  It has even gone so far as having people tag up and telling others not to listen to TTS leaders and follow them instead.  This has caused a lot of drama over the last few days and I wish for it to stop.

 

If there has ever been an instance where a TTS member or leader has gone to a PUG map and tried to force others to use our strategy, please contact me via PM.

 

Edit: I guess I should say this is my opinion based on previous discussion we had on this issue

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Main difference I've observed between group strat and circle strat. Group strat requires complete cooperation and a party of pugs is all you need to screw it up. With maps that aren't >90% full of TTS members on teamspeak willing to listen chances are the pugs are going to insist on circling and their efforts alone are enough to cause scale up problems. 

 

Sure circle strat requires you to start with it and not use it as a fall back plan. But what's your fall back plan when circle strat goes wrong? Group strat just calls in emergency help for a few minutes to clear whatever mobs and then they can go back to whatever their doing. Circle strat hasn't failed often from what I've seen. But when it does there's no going back. There's no reset. No ERT to save you. Massive mob zergs. Champ spawns. If a large enough portion of your zerg gets picked off and separated from the rest of the group it causes a domino effect. Even when the whole zerg regathered and tried again the maps that I've been in with the circle strat that have failed never recovered. 

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Thing with the Circle strategy: It cheeses the fight.   You and all the pugs might not mind doing whatever to win, but you have to realize, Anet intended the fight to be done in a certain way, and the circle strategy makes intended design null and void.

 

Here is the deal: I prefer the challenge rather than the cheese and would rather fail at doing something correctly, than succeed by eating the cheese and then have that cheesy flavor left in my mouth afterwards.  Taste nasty yo.

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12 minutes ago, Vanadis said:

Has TTS ever run an organized circle strat DS?  I would be curious to see how it did.

 

Basically attend any DS where the majority of the map are pugs when TTS tries to run and you'll see it. 

 

11 minutes ago, Diviner said:

Thing with the Circle strategy: It cheeses the fight.   You and all the pugs might not mind doing whatever to win, but you have to realize, Anet intended the fight to be done in a certain way, and the circle strategy makes intended design null and void.

 

Here is the deal: I prefer the challenge rather than the cheese and would rather fail at doing something correctly, then succeed by eating the cheese and then have that cheesy flavor left in my mouth afterwards.  Taste nasty yo.

 

Yeah I can tell from your display pic face lolololol

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Hmm, okay.

 

So, lets start with the title "Why is TTS mispresenting Circle Strategy so much?" - As far as I know, we never are, and never have been. We always approach these things with logical thought, and it's no different here. If you truly believe that we're misrepresenting the Circle Strategy Vs. The Group Strategy, then lets squash that here. If you've been in the channel with me, the MANY times we've discussed this already, I think many would agree, this is simply not true. 

 

  1. "It's not as fast as Group Strat." - Completely subjective, and irrelevant IMO. Any group that practices something and gets it down to a level of expertise is going to excel past the group that fights over which strategy to use. The simple reality is, we can run both with relative ease, but the problem we're seeing is that when we run Circle Strategy, people yell at us for not running Groups. When we run Groups, we get yelled at for not running Circle Strategy. Every single day, there's a map chat arguement in which many people argue that the strategy you're speaking of is the be all and the end all. This causes more problems, then people just working with the commander. Today during EU, the bickering got so bad, that we had middle and north wipe because they were arguing over which strategy to use. It's ridiculous, and honestly, regardless of which strategy we use, it needs to stop. It's ineffective, and being a map chat warrior has no basis here.

    So, lets look at the arguements against Circle Strat. The claims that the zerg hyper-scales the pod are true, if you disagree with that, I'm sorry, you're wrong. Having 30 people near a pod causes the enemies, as well as the pod to hyper-scale based on the number of combatants in the area. We've seen this reign true as we've ran incredibly small groups at the pods, and a group of 3 people were able to manage 3 of them. Once again, at TTS, we specifically look into the odds and ends of each fight, and we justify our strategies every single time we attempt to make them wide-spread. We're not running circle strategy because we "don't like it" - we're not running circle strat because it isn't effective for our methods. Much like it isn't effective to run a ranged zerg at Tequatl, yet PUG maps still do it. If we did everything to be "pug-friendly" there'd be no point in us utilizing teamspeak, or attempting to organize. Flat out. Full stop. If you believe that the mobs aren't an issue because the zerg will be able to take care of them, anything left behind is going to cause a mass build up, and issues are to persist. As for you claiming that it "personally hasn't happened to you" - is irrelevant. Apples and oranges.
     
  2.  We prefer Group Strat because the fight is very obviously designed around utilizing groups in order to complete the map in the most efficient time possible. The ley-line collectors are color coded, the islands are color coded, the events are purposefully split apart so you can't blob them in a zerg. It's so painfully obvious that the intent is not for you to zerg the events down, nor the boss fight down. Circle Strat works because of an unfortunate timing in the way the preserves spawn, I could see them changing it in the near future, but who knows, perhaps not. They may have already moved on to different content.

    Ultimately, we're running groups because Squad UI is going to make all of the "organizational" woes non-sequitur. 

If you honestly believe we're misrepresenting the circle strat, let us know how you'd like us to represent it differently. We're logical people. We don't just do something without reason, and generally, we're not afraid to defend why we did something. Ultimately, I feel that circle strat isn't going to stick around after Squad UI comes out, but who knows - only time will tell.

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Basically what Ailarin said. If we're using Group strat, please follow the commanders directions and respec their decision. If you want to run circle strat all the time, there's plenty of PUG maps you can join in on. 

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A few observations to help improve the group strat

  1. The poision pod group doesn't have that much impact
  2. The poision pod group can cause scaling issues accedentially when in proximity to the pods
  3. If the preserver groups have consistent AOE heals it makes things much eaiser (EX. heal turret). I managed to keep a group alive using this and we were able to keep a pod group successful even when dealing with the poison mobs
  4. If we move the poison group to the boss fight (and potentially make them ERT) we would have more people to burn the boss faster

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  Okay...  I'm going to look like a jerk here but this is my view.   I'll state out that I have no issues working with fellow leaders regardless of their strat and they have no issues with me running with whatever strat.  I will always run what strat my council member tells me to run and I will do so without hesitation.  That being said,  I agree with Ailarin on some views,  but I also don't see the need to throw it out as if it's a bad habit.  Anyone that knows me knows I always encourage people to try to do things fast and effective.  I've been leading world boss fights well before even joining TTS leadership (that being said,  this position taught me a LOT).

 

  Pros to Circle Strat

 

- It's much easier

- It requires little coordination

- It doesn't require as much skill

- With more than 10% Pugs on the map (aka people not in teamspeak) it may be a better choice.

 

Cons

- It lacks opportunity to build coordination and relationship

- Since it lacks player skill, it prevents people from building experience and opportunity to improve

- It "apparently" cannot be recoverable

 

Pros to Group Strat

 

- It builds player skill much more efficiently than circle strat

- It helps build those relationships

- It's equally as fast/faster as circle strat when done efficiently

 

Cons to Group strat

 

- Requires above average player skill

- Pugs can EASILY hurt the raid

- Is generally more difficult

 

So let me state this clearly to make sure we're all on the same page.

 

I PREFER TO DO THE GROUP STRAT OVER THE CIRCLE STRAT.  But I am not against using the circle strat if it helps make the raid successful.

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I feel there is a large disconnect between what some members/pugs expect to gain from dragon stand and what the commanders of TTS want.  PUGS/some TTS see DS as a cystalline ore farm, they are there to get 250+ crystalline ore for the new legendarys/armor and the leystone armor boxes.  The want to just get through it as fast as possible and circle strat is the path of least resistance/fastest way to get it done.

 

TTS commanders want to treat DS as a group building/raid prep zone so they want to use group strat.

 

As to circle strat not being intended I have to disagree.  From the beginning of DS all the way to the towers you always zerg then split into two groups, zerg split into 2 groups.  Preservers always spawn like clockwork.  Why should the last area be any different.  And in reply to circle strat being cheesy, why shouldn't you use it because its lame.  We attack an invisible hitbox on tequatl 5 seconds before battery ends, we wait for amber wurm to start an animation before firing harpoons to get an extended burns.  Aren't these also cheesy/possibly not intended?

 

Finally I keep hearing that once squad ui is in group strat will be better, and while it might make it faster for the commanders to split people into groups there is still no way to make PUGs join your squad.  And as for it being raid training I don't think its comparable since you are never going to run into scaling problems during raids.

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1 hour ago, Vanadis said:

I feel there is a large disconnect between what some members/pugs expect to gain from dragon stand and what the commanders of TTS want.  PUGS/some TTS see DS as a cystalline ore farm, they are there to get 250+ crystalline ore for the new legendarys/armor and the leystone armor boxes.  The want to just get through it as fast as possible and circle strat is the path of least resistance/fastest way to get it done.

 

TTS commanders want to treat DS as a group building/raid prep zone so they want to use group strat.

 

As to circle strat not being intended I have to disagree.  From the beginning of DS all the way to the towers you always zerg then split into two groups, zerg split into 2 groups.  Preservers always spawn like clockwork.  Why should the last area be any different.  And in reply to circle strat being cheesy, why shouldn't you use it because its lame.  We attack an invisible hitbox on tequatl 5 seconds before battery ends, we wait for amber wurm to start an animation before firing harpoons to get an extended burns.  Aren't these also cheesy/possibly not intended?

 

Finally I keep hearing that once squad ui is in group strat will be better, and while it might make it faster for the commanders to split people into groups there is still no way to make PUGs join your squad.  And as for it being raid training I don't think its comparable since you are never going to run into scaling problems during raids.

 

Whether or not there's a large disconnect - when you participate in TTS maps, you're expected to some level, to follow the commanders lead, regardless if they tell you to jump off a cliff, etc. If you don't like how a commander is leading, it's at that point you speak about it in the debrief and not cause strife in map chat, which many people seem to be doing as of late. Ultimately, we're here to get the kill and ensure that we can do so quickly and efficiently. If we're having to spend two hours in Dragon's Stand because people fail to work with us, ultimately, it falls on members not participating and arguing instead of just working with us. Once again, we justify every single strategy we run by giving you guys an explanation at the start of every fight. We do this, because we generally always have good reasons as to why we run the things we do. Circle Strat being the "path of least resistance/fastest way to get it done" is merely an opinion, and as such I cannot humor it. As I stated before, any group that practices something will always be faster than the group who attempts to support the lowest common denominator. Moreover, TTS tries to work with everyone, and we do try to support the lowest common denominator, but we're going to teach people what we believe is the best strat, and we'll always justify why.

 

However, "TTS commanders want to treat DS as a group building/raid prep zone so they want to use group strat." - I'm sorry, but if anyone is justifying this as "raid prep" - they're wrong. We're running, or well, I am running group strat because of all the times I have ran it in the NA time-slot, I've had very little resistance and life has been easy. Circle Strat is no different, but I find it brainless and generally not something I am interested in. Will I run it if I see that my map is filled with people who aren't utilizing teamspeak? Yes. However, I don't run group strats because I want to "train people for raids." - I run it because I find it to be the most reliable strategy with the least chance of failure. Ultimately, we don't run things because it's "easier" we run things because there's a logical reason to use it, and because it may be faster. Is running a melee zerg on Tequatl easier? No. Is it faster? Yes. Does it require coordination? Yes. In the past few days, there's been a huge amount of people that are lashing out and making sure that group strat doesn't work, and it's the exact same people who consistently and constantly advocate circle strat because they don't want to try something different. If you can logically argue that Circle Strat > Group Strat, because of X reasons, then I can accept that - however, all I'm seeing is "circle strat is better because we have pugs!" which is so irrelevant. It was those exact same arguments we saw when Ex-Leader Deathrifyerr popularized the double damage spots. It was the exact same argument we saw when Kalak rallied the leaders to switch away from class splits. He had a logical argument, and as such we followed. The arguments we're seeing for Circle Strat simply aren't there.

 

As for you disagreeing that circle strat isn't intended, I'm honestly not sure how you can. Your own explanation of how the event works suggests that splitting into groups is the way to go. If you can honestly say that the color-coded events, the tiers in the blighting tower, and the color coded islands does not suggest that the event is intended to be completed in groups, then I'm honestly not sure how to convince you any further that it is the truth. Ultimately, this is up to player perception, so we may just have to agree to disagree.

 

In reference to your last point, we need to stop thinking that PUGs are mindless husks that react to colors. Many TTS members once used to be PUGs, so give them a benefit of the doubt. Squad UI is going to assist quite tremendously, because right clicking a commander tag and joining their Squad is not as hard as you're making it out to be. At that point, it's drag and drop from the commander, and life is easy. TTS will most likely be utilizing Squad UI not only as an organizational tool, but for commanders to gain another tactical advantage during the fights. Squad UI is a great addition to the game, and from what we've seen, it's going to be quite helpful. Play any other MMO, and the Raid UI is single-handedly the best addition to any party.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Erik said:

 

Whether or not there's a large disconnect, when you participate in TTS maps, you're expected, to some level, to follow the commanders lead; regardless if they tell you to jump off a cliff, etc. If you don't like how a commander is leading, it's at that point you speak about it in the debrief, not cause strife in map chat, which many people seem to be doing as of late. Ultimately, we're here to get the kill and ensure that we can do so quickly and efficiently. If we're having to spend two hours in Dragon's Stand because people fail to work with us, ultimately, it falls on members not participating and arguing instead of just working with us. Once again, we justify every single strategy we run by giving you guys an explanation at the start of every fight. We do this, because we generally always have good reasons as to why we run the things we do. Circle Strat being the "path of least resistance/fastest way to get it done" is merely an opinion, and as such I cannot humor it. As I stated before, any group that practices something will always be faster than the group who attempts to support the lowest common denominator. Moreover, TTS tries to work with everyone, and we do try to support the lowest common denominator, but we're going to teach people what we believe is the best strat, and we'll always justify why.

 

However, "TTS commanders want to treat DS as a group building/raid prep zone so they want to use group strat." - I'm sorry, but if anyone is justifying this as "raid prep" - they're wrong. We're running, or well, I am running group strat because of all the times I have ran it in the NA time-slot, I've had very little resistance and life has been easy. Circle Strat is no different, but I find it brainless and generally not something I am interested in. Will I run it if I see that my map is filled with people who aren't utilizing teamspeak? Yes. However, I don't run group strats because I want to "train people for raids." - I run it because I find it to be the most reliable strategy with the least chance of failure. Ultimately, we don't run things because it's "easier" we run things because there's a logical reason to use it, and because it may be faster. Is running a melee zerg on Tequatl easier? No. Is it faster? Yes. Does it require coordination? Yes. In the past few days, there's been a huge amount of people that are lashing out and making sure that group strat doesn't work, and it's the exact same people who consistently and constantly advocate circle strat because they don't want to try something different. If you can logically argue that Circle Strat > Group Strat, because of X reasons, then I can accept that - however, all I'm seeing is "circle strat is better because we have pugs!" which is so irrelevant. It was those exact same arguments we saw when Ex-Leader Deathrifyerr popularized the double damage spots. It was the exact same argument we saw when Kalak rallied the leaders to switch away from class splits. He had a logical argument, and as such we followed. The arguments we're seeing for Circle Strat simply aren't there.

 

As for you disagreeing that circle strat isn't intended, I'm honestly not sure how you can. Your own explanation of how the event works suggests that splitting into groups is the way to go. If you can honestly say that the color-coded events, the tiers in the blighting tower, and the color coded islands does not suggest that the event is intended to be completed in groups, then I'm honestly not sure how to convince you any further that it is the truth. Ultimately, this is up to player perception, so we may just have to agree to disagree.

 

In reference to your last point, we need to stop thinking that PUGs are mindless husks that react to colors. Many TTS members once used to be PUGs, so give them a benefit of the doubt. Squad UI is going to assist quite tremendously, because right clicking a commander tag and joining their Squad is not as hard as you're making it out to be. At that point, it's drag and drop from the commander, and life is easy. TTS will most likely be utilizing Squad UI not only as an organizational tool, but for commanders to gain another tactical advantage during the fights. Squad UI is a great addition to the game, and from what we've seen, it's going to be quite helpful. Play any other MMO, and the Raid UI is single-handedly the best addition to any party.

 

 

 

I've been to 4 TTS commanded Dragon Stand, the first one was lead by you and we finished with group strat after about 20ish minutes probably, the other 2 also finished after extremely long tower fights with many scaling and wiping issues and I was at todays failed raid.  I go to where I'm assigned, I kill my preserver and pod, I never complain in map chat, I never say group strat is stupid and tell people to run circle strat.  I post here because I feel this is the only place where feedback doesn't instantly get shut down by people not taking the issue seriously in teamspeak, and even in this post there 2 replies I consider unhelpful/pointless

 

In comparison I've been to around 10 pug DSs, and all but one have done the towers in around 5 minutes using circle strat, and the one that didn't took around 25 minutes but we were able to keep running the circle that long.  So from my point of view circle strat is the more successful strat.  So I guess Ill just go ahead and post my views on both strats(this is how I perceive them, not saying everybody does).

 

Groups Strat

Pros:

1.You can recover from wipes if they happen

2.It's not as boring as circle strat?

 

Cons:

1. It's slow to setup currently(10 minutes at the start of every map)

2. Unreliable Scaling that can wipe even good geared/skilled groups

3. Unreliable player gear/skill

4. Relies on relatively close timing on killing tower bosses

 

Circle Strat:

Pros:

1. Personal Skill/gear doesn't matter as much(some people might consider this a con)

2. Its faster to setup, fast splits at tower gates

3. No timing involved in killing the bosses

4. Scaling/large groups of mobs happen but doesn't really affect the strat

5. The boss kills are generally faster because there more people killing the boss

 

Cons:

1. It's boring

2. Hard to recover if you fail(I've heard, never been in a failed circle strat)

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17 minutes ago, Vanadis said:

 

I've been to 4 TTS commanded Dragon Stand, the first one was lead by you and we finished with group strat after about 20ish minutes probably, the other 2 also finished after extremely long tower fights with many scaling and wiping issues and I was at todays failed raid.  I go to where I'm assigned, I kill my preserver and pod, I never complain in map chat, I never say group strat is stupid and tell people to run circle strat.  I post here because I feel this is the only place where feedback doesn't instantly get shut down by people not taking the issue seriously in teamspeak, and even in this post there 2 replies I consider unhelpful/pointless

 

In comparison I've been to around 10 pug DSs, and all but one have done the towers in around 5 minutes using circle strat, and the one that didn't took around 25 minutes but we were able to keep running the circle that long.  So from my point of view circle strat is the more successful strat.  So I guess Ill just go ahead and post my views on both strats(this is how I perceive them, not saying everybody does).

 

Groups Strat

Pros:

1.You can recover from wipes if they happen

2.It's not as boring as circle strat?

 

Cons:

1. It's slow to setup currently(10 minutes at the start of every map)

2. Unreliable Scaling that can wipe even good geared/skilled groups

3. Unreliable player gear/skill

4. Relies on relatively close timing on killing tower bosses

 

Circle Strat:

Pros:

1. Personal Skill/gear doesn't matter as much(some people might consider this a con)

2. Its faster to setup, fast splits at tower gates

3. No timing involved in killing the bosses

4. Scaling/large groups of mobs happen but doesn't really affect the strat

5. The boss kills are generally faster because there more people killing the boss

 

Cons:

1. It's boring

2. Hard to recover if you fail(I've heard, never been in a failed circle strat)


If you've been to my runs, then you'd know a majority of these cons come from an incredibly bias view-point. I'm kind of confused how you got many of these, because I can't even recollect where some of these occurred. If these happened in the European Time Zone, please take into consideration many of the leaders in those time-zones are not experienced with this fight yet, and are still learning it. As for finishing around "20ish minutes or so" - this was because we had two new commanders who had NEVER done it, and were just now attempting the fight. If you recall, our tower was ready to kill in roughly 5-6 minutes. Without a hitch. We even kept the pods defended for the entirety of 20 minutes, and I even instructed a group to let a preserver through so the boss didn't get killed early in case. Your sample size is incredibly small, and to insist something is better than another when you've been to 4 runs, compared to 20 runs of Circle Strat is just, well, asinine.

  • It took me roughly 1 minute to set up the groups. I did at the door, and we were ready to go. If someone else is doing it differently, it's because they haven't practiced it. If a commander is taking longer than that, they're doing it wrong.
  • Once again, you're claiming that scaling is worse in the group strat. The scaling isn't unreliable, we know exactly how it functions. There's no "unreliable" mechanic about it. It's quite straight forward. If anything, the scaling while running Circle Strat would be far more "unreliable" because the "pugs" wouldn't be able to handle the champions that spawn (addressed in a later point) Once again, this is a product of people failing to listen to the commander, and instead insist that circle strat is the best thing in the world. Of course Circle Strat is "better" right now - it's being practiced every single day. It was the exact same argument with a Melee Zerg vs a Ranged Zerg. It's why pugs still do ranged zergs, because it's all they ever practiced and it's reliable. Is it fast? No. Is it reliable? Yes. - It's legitimately the exact same argument, yet now, we can't even get TTS members to trust us and work with us to practice groups. Instead, we're arguing in map chat over which strategy is better.
  • Unreliable player/gear skill is a con that can be placed in both strategies.
  • It doesn't really rely on relatively close timing on killing tower bosses at all, we do this so we can power through without any mishaps. If a champion is killed early, the commander diverts their people to the pods in order to assist them with preservers. We merely sync out of habit, if anything.

So, lets look at the pro's/cons of running circle strat.

  • "Personal Skill/gear doesn't matter as much" - I'd say it does matter. With the event hyper-scaling due to 20-30 people being at one pod, you start slowing yourself down quite considerably if your zerg isn't running the proper gear. You can't honestly insist that what people are running doesn't matter when you're playing with the scaling that much.
  • "it's faster to set up" - if you set up Group Strat my way, I'd say it isn't. It takes me 30 seconds to a minute to quickly split people into the groups I need. Hop in my channel sometime if you'd like to see how I do it. I don't sit around and wait for people to lollygag. They get left behind if they want to do that. I always set up groups at the door, and haven't had a problem yet.
  • "No timing involved in killing the bosses." - Neither is there in the group strat, we do it out of habit. We sync purely to ensure that everyone has the highest chance of success. Do we have to? No.
  • "Scaling/large groups of mobs happen, but doesn't really affect the strat." - I'll say this point has some validity, and that's purely because of an RNG component in the spawning of mobs. Much like Tequatl, if a champion grub spawns - it's a priority. Here, if a champion sniper/champion stalker spawns, they should be priorities too. These guys can wipe entire zergs, and I've seen it happen before. So, this does affect the strat to me. 
  • "The boss kills are generally faster because there are more people killing the boss." - Once again, seemingly false. The boss scales with the amount of people in the zerg. A smaller group is going to be able to kill the boss in, relatively, the same amount of time. Hence the intention of scaling in the game.

As for your remaining cons of Circle Strat, whether or not it's boring doesn't really affect me. I run strategies based off their practicality and efficiency. As for it being hard to recover, it is in the sense that it's far more time consuming than sending your boss group to get those who have went down on their pods, and re-establishing one pod, compared to all three pods and a boss.

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If you don't care for the way TTS runs the map, you don't have to come when we do DS maps. If you want to use circle strat you can always find a map that is using the method you would prefer to get your ore. It's a game and you should play the way you want :). Its not uncommon for people to skip out on certain TTS events because they don't enjoy them. 

 

At this point, I think people are just kind of arguing in circles though and no new points are really being raised. I don't mean to brush aside your point, but it seems people are biasing opinions very much based on what their end goals are and neither side is really going to convince the other. People who want circle strat want speed and loot, people who want group strat are looking for more community interaction and a more interesting fight. You can never really change a person's perception of what they are looking for out of a game, and that is what the essence of these strategies are based on. There isn't anything wrong with how a person wants to play a game (as long as they don't ruin the experience for others), so just focus on playing the way you want to play!

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Just want to clarify what I mean by unreliable scaling.  Today I was at north tower blue pod, we went for like 5-10 minutes with easy spawns of mostly normal mobs with maybe 1 vet and then suddenly we get a vet stalker and an elite stalker with no change to anything, nobody running past.  So did the group below killing pods scale our mobs? Do elites just randomly spawn every once and a while?

Edited by Vanadis
was blue pod not red pod

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The mobs below do not spawn until all ley-line collectors are down. Once all ley-line collectors are down, mobs from the blighting pods below will being going up the ramps. If you saw them spawn there, yes, it is a chance for an elite/veteran to spawn. 

 

The group below does not affect the scaling of the pods above. The tiers as well as events are z-axis restricted, as far as we can tell, and as such do not affect the boss in the middle, the pods on the 2nd tier, or the blighting pods on the bottom.

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