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Vanadis

Why is TTS misrepresenting Circle Strat so much?

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11 minutes ago, Vanadis said:

Nope it spawned up where the preserver spawns

 

Then it was a component of the RNG spawns. Meaning there were enough players there for the system to justify the spawning of an elite/vet, but not a champion, which is what you see with Circle Strat.

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It was just one full group there, although somebody in group said that the pod group was below us at the time and one of the other pods also said they got elite spawns when the pod group was below them in teamspeak.

Edited by Vanadis
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25 minutes ago, Vanadis said:

It was just one full group there, although somebody in group said that the pod group was below us at the time and one of the other pods also said they got elite spawns when the pod group was below them in teamspeak.

 

We'll test it on this Dragons Stand run, and lets find out :^D

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13 hours ago, Erik said:

 

:o) it can, it just takes more time.

Which is something thats limited on the map. Not to mention way more valuable to me as a player than to waste time sitting and twiddling my thumbs even longer because something goes wrong. Plan for the worst, Hope for the best.

Edited by Staler

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On 11/7/2015, 1:34:14, waterfoul said:

A few observations to help improve the group strat

  1. The poision pod group doesn't have that much impact
  2. The poision pod group can cause scaling issues accedentially when in proximity to the pods
  3. If the preserver groups have consistent AOE heals it makes things much eaiser (EX. heal turret). I managed to keep a group alive using this and we were able to keep a pod group successful even when dealing with the poison mobs
  4. If we move the poison group to the boss fight (and potentially make them ERT) we would have more people to burn the boss faster

So I'm going to have to retract what I said about poison, In south red we found a spot that caused the mobs to run circles and not get to our group (image attached) which made our group's run MUCH eaiser. Point 3 is still valid

gw202.jpg

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So what changes are being made to make this event more successful? I hear that we are 'working on' the group strategy to make it better and yet last nights NA raid was nothing short of a disaster. So, what are we planning to try differently? I'm not saying the group strategy is good or bad but I am saying what we are doing now is not working. 

 

I've been running this event with TTS a lot and every time it's exactly the same. Sure, most of the time it works, but when it goes wrong it really really goes wrong. If we say we are working on making it better then we should actually work on making it better. I attended an EU raid the other day where the commanders made it clear that "if you just want loot you should go to another map" and I was ok with that until we got to the fight and did the exact same version of group strategy that I'd already seen done several times. If you are going to tell people that it isn't a loot run then at least throw in some sort of innovation so that it feels like we aren't just bashing our heads against the wall.

 

One last thing, if we claim to be using group strategy over circle strat because it's 'the way the devs intended' then why are we ignoring the pods in the poison? They are obviously supposed to be a part of the fight and yet I haven't seen a group assigned to them yet. We don't run a wurm without a reflect team and condi team, why is this any different?

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I've been staying out of this thread lately because I knew it would be a bit of a shit show, but I am disappointed by some of the posts here that add nothing to the conversation and only serve to antagonize people. Particularly, TheAnswerer's picture post really has no place in this thread. At best it is in poor taste, and at worst it is a rude provocation. I think it's a shame that it's been allowed to stand, especially since he was once a TTS leader and should know the values that we represent as a guild.

 

With that out of the way, I think that the choice of strategy in approaching the towers is really not much different from each other. The bottom line, it is a personal preference of the commanders in charge. I believe that there are merits to both strategies and I think it's basically fruitless to argue one way or the other. The devs made the game, but players play it. However that goes is however it goes as long as the players aren't clearly exploiting a bug. Both strategies are clearly valid in the sense that they work when done well, and go south when they aren't done well. With all that being said, I think TTS' insistence on the group strategy puts it in a precarious position vis-a-vis the tide of non-TTS members. Map chat, regardless of the strategy, will always be toxic and it can be even more so if people fuel the fire. The bottom line? I think part of TTS' job is to educate and advocate for its preferred strategy without resorting to ultimatums. Part of the problem right now is that the strategies are not codified and so it is hard for people to learn them. As far as I know, TTS has not published a guide to the group strategy like it has for Tequatl or Triple Trouble. My understanding is that this is in the works. Likewise, I am aware of at least 2 different spins on the "circle strat" as I was called out on a toxic map chat for not knowing how to do it (even though I was ultimately successful at my tower). Long story short: the majority of players are still clueless as to how to best to Dragon's Stand and TTS has an opportunity to teach.

 

I think that it would be wise to write up both strategies and let people decide on how they want to do it. Ultimately, I think that the circle strategy will gain more credence because it is ultimately an easier way to run the fight. I don't think this is a bad thing, after all, we choose to run reflect teams to make TT easier - I mean the devs did initially intend for the larva to stick around, but were impressed that players figured out they could reflect the eggs and so left it as is. As Eytbolik mentioned, there is a huge opportunity to iterate on the optimal strategy, but TTS doesn't seem to have taken the opportunity to. To the guild's defense (at least in the NA time slot), it is because many leaders have been slow to the uptake on learning the new metas.

Anyway, that's my two cents - take it or leave it.

Edited by Jacobbs

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51 minutes ago, Etybolik said:

So what changes are being made to make this event more successful? I hear that we are 'working on' the group strategy to make it better and yet last nights NA raid was nothing short of a disaster. So, what are we planning to try differently? I'm not saying the group strategy is good or bad but I am saying what we are doing now is not working. 

 

I've been running this event with TTS a lot and every time it's exactly the same. Sure, most of the time it works, but when it goes wrong it really really goes wrong. If we say we are working on making it better then we should actually work on making it better. I attended an EU raid the other day where the commanders made it clear that "if you just want loot you should go to another map" and I was ok with that until we got to the fight and did the exact same version of group strategy that I'd already seen done several times. If you are going to tell people that it isn't a loot run then at least throw in some sort of innovation so that it feels like we aren't just bashing our heads against the wall.

 

One last thing, if we claim to be using group strategy over circle strat because it's 'the way the devs intended' then why are we ignoring the pods in the poison? They are obviously supposed to be a part of the fight and yet I haven't seen a group assigned to them yet. We don't run a wurm without a reflect team and condi team, why is this any different?

 

Unfortunately, it's becoming ever so clear that it's a product of bad commanding.

 

At this point, running whatever strategy or not, I don't really care anymore. I just want us to get the kill sufficiently. So, commanders ought to run whatever they feel is going to get them to the finish line.

 

Ultimately, the strategies we utilize come down to commander preference. Many of the people who have ran with me know that I prefer the group strategy, and that it is rather successful, unfortunately, I'm taking some time off after running these new meta-events continuously for 2 weeks straight, so it doesn't look like I'll have time to demonstrate.

 

As for the pods down below, we haven't ran those because most people still lack the Itzel Poison Lore mastery (moreso now, because of the removed time-gating on the story.) 

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1 hour ago, Etybolik said:

I attended an EU raid the other day where the commanders made it clear that "if you just want loot you should go to another map" and I was ok with that until we got to the fight and did the exact same version of group strategy that I'd already seen done several times. If you are going to tell people that it isn't a loot run then at least throw in some sort of innovation so that it feels like we aren't just bashing our heads against the wall.

 

The innovation is our approach was trying to communicate to the map our intentions and our need for co-operation in a more open and earlier manner.  Which we did receive, a lot more people were happy to be divided into groups and follow instructions.  Its a process of education not just improving the strat.

 

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1 hour ago, Erik said:

 

Unfortunately, it's becoming ever so clear that it's a product of bad commanding.

 

At this point, running whatever strategy or not, I don't really care anymore. I just want us to get the kill sufficiently. So, commanders ought to run whatever they feel is going to get them to the finish line.

 

Ultimately, the strategies we utilize come down to commander preference. Many of the people who have ran with me know that I prefer the group strategy, and that it is rather successful, unfortunately, I'm taking some time off after running these new meta-events continuously for 2 weeks straight, so it doesn't look like I'll have time to demonstrate.

 

As for the pods down below, we haven't ran those because most people still lack the Itzel Poison Lore mastery (moreso now, because of the removed time-gating on the story.) 

 

I have noticed that some commanders have only been assigning 5 people per pod instead of the 8 or so that is truly needed so I wouldn't say it is "bad commanding" so much as maybe just not being aware of what the actual requirements for the group strat to be successful. This is one of the biggest things that I have noticed commanders doing incorrectly. Five per pod is simply not enough if the lower pods are not going to be utilized. This is especially true of the pod closest to the entrance of the three arenas since people are constantly running through causing higher level mobs to spawn and in turn killing off most of that pod's team.

 

As far as people lacking the poison lore mastery, this is obviously only going to continue to move in the right direction as time goes on. Even now I don't see this being a barrier at all since we are able to reliably complete the poison events in each lane. If those events are completed then I don't see any reason why we shouldn't ask those same people to step up for the lower pods in the tower fight. I'm sure this was a barrier when group strat was conceived but at this point it shouldn't be a problem and I think we should start utilizing the benefits that come with having people down there.

 

49 minutes ago, Saith of Dusk said:

 

The innovation is our approach was trying to communicate to the map our intentions and our need for co-operation in a more open and earlier manner.  Which we did receive, a lot more people were happy to be divided into groups and follow instructions.  Its a process of education not just improving the strat.

 

 

Ok, that makes sense. I must have missed that being explained during the raid, if it was, but I am glad that you did innovate on the strategy.

 

Thanks for the replies guys, honestly my point in posting was really just to check in and see whats going on. It is frustrating to be able to go into a pug map and have an equal and sometimes even better experience than going into a TTS map. Obviously I'm still going to continue doing this meta with TTS but I just wanted to make sure it is going somewhere instead of stalling out and becoming something everyone dreads doing.

Edited by Etybolik

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3 hours ago, Etybolik said:

 

I have noticed that some commanders have only been assigning 5 people per pod instead of the 8 or so that is truly needed so I wouldn't say it is "bad commanding" so much as maybe just not being aware of what the actual requirements for the group strat to be successful. This is one of the biggest things that I have noticed commanders doing incorrectly. Five per pod is simply not enough if the lower pods are not going to be utilized. This is especially true of the pod closest to the entrance of the three arenas since people are constantly running through causing higher level mobs to spawn and in turn killing off most of that pod's team.

You are incorrect here, 5 is enough for the pod groups without having to worry about mobs from below. The issues caused in the raid last night were the amount of people either not in TS, or just simply ignoring instructions, IE not killing the boss before being ready. Also people running the wrong way through the zone to get to the boss, always go the path which only goes past 1 pod team as that will only bother 1 pod team, and if there is 5 people in the team it is less likely to scale when 1 or 2 people walk past, but with a higher number of people in the team its already on the border of the upscale and 1 or 2 people running past at the wrong time cause disasters.

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5 minutes ago, Saevai said:

You are incorrect here, 5 is enough for the pod groups without having to worry about mobs from below. The issues caused in the raid last night were the amount of people either not in TS, or just simply ignoring instructions, IE not killing the boss before being ready. Also people running the wrong way through the zone to get to the boss, always go the path which only goes past 1 pod team as that will only bother 1 pod team, and if there is 5 people in the team it is less likely to scale when 1 or 2 people walk past, but with a higher number of people in the team its already on the border of the upscale and 1 or 2 people running past at the wrong time cause disasters.

In my experience, 5 people can do it if the composition is right. Otherwise 6-8 may be required to brute force it.

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10 minutes ago, Jacobbs said:

In my experience, 5 people can do it if the composition is right. Otherwise 6-8 may be required to brute force it.

Yes and we dont brute force condi teams. So why brute force the pod teams, there are plenty of viable builds which work on pod teams. The biggest thing I have noticed as to why pod teams fail is they have the wrong priority targets. Preserver > Pod > Vets > Elites > Champs

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6 minutes ago, Saevai said:

Yes and we dont brute force condi teams. So why brute force the pod teams, there are plenty of viable builds which work on pod teams. The biggest thing I have noticed as to why pod teams fail is they have the wrong priority targets. Preserver > Pod > Vets > Elites > Champs

In my experience, it really is the type of mob that matters, more so than their grade. Once the Presever and the pod are taken care of, stalkers > Snipers > others

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I agree that 5 can be enough to successfully lock down a pod zone. I've been in groups of 5 where we easily held our own, nobody died and the preservers didn't get to walk but a few feet before being put down. I've also been in a pod group of 7 that went very smoothly as well. On the opposite end of this I've been in a few groups of 5 that just couldn't stop dying and we had to call for help over and over as well as a group of 8 that had similar issues.

 

The biggest difference from these groups as far as I could tell just came down to player awareness. Knowing where to stand and where your preserver spawns (or someone from the group telling the rest) and being able to provide the CC to break the preserver's breakbar.

 

Right now on the TTS runs I've been on, commanders have just been splitting up groups at the start without telling any team where they will be going and without really caring about the team's composition. There's been very little direction for these teams up until the fight in which they are basically thrown to the wolves and told to stay alive, and kill preservers. And some players are fine with that and are very self directed and motivated; but TTS has always been welcoming to those new to a fight and a specialized team too. I feel for group strat to grow each pod team needs it's own leader who knows the fight and locations of preserver spawns. Someone who will teach the team about their responsibilities and direct them during the fight as necessary; especially in calling out targets. Basically what works for TT should be adopted here.

 

As for the breakbars I just hope it's growing pains with a new game mechanic and eventually players will realize what they've got and begin to switch things out as necessary. Some people are stubborn with their builds, but adding those CC skills is essential in these teams. I'll bring up TT again and our use of the reflect/condi groups. We ask they bring certain builds/weapons/skills on those teams. I think when making these pod teams we ask for people who WILL be willing to change their skills to include more CC. Maybe even a CC guide could be useful as a quick link before things get started that shows classes and what CCs they can bring.

 

As a side note, one thing that I've noticed has been lacking from post DS maps is our debrief. Obviously we can't do that immediately afterwards because of the limited time with getting noxious pods and map exploration. But I feel it would be helpful for everyone to stick around afterwards and mention what did and didn't work and how things can be improved with group strat; and give members something to think about till next time. Same could be said for Octovine and maybe even Verdant Brink. Only new map I can recall we do a debrief on has been Tangled Depths.

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2 hours ago, Saevai said:

Yes and we dont brute force condi teams. So why brute force the pod teams, there are plenty of viable builds which work on pod teams. The biggest thing I have noticed as to why pod teams fail is they have the wrong priority targets. Preserver > Pod > Vets > Elites > Champs

 

I'm not sure brute force is the term here. We don't really brute force anything. What we do do is ensure teams will be successful. We don't need 5 reflectors on each wurm at triple trouble but more often than not, we do have 5. Why? To ensure success. Same goes for condi, we don't need 5, especially now that they have break bars and can't be as controlled, but we still have 5 in the hopes that those 5 are enough to get them down before they affect the raid too much.

 

Applying this to Dragon's Stand, if you have a group of 5 on a pod and 3 of them are wiped out by those stupid snipers or whatever then we are just hoping that the two left have enough CC slotted to take care of the preserver's bar and kill it while the other 3 run back. If there are 8 on that pod team and 3 or even 4 of them get wiped out then it is still relatively likely that the remaining people on the team can break the preserver's bar, right? Just like if we are doing triple trouble and 2 or 3 reflectors happen to get wiped out randomly, it is still very likely someone will still be there to reflect the eggs.

 

All that being said, if we were to utilize a poison team on the tower phase then maybe 5 will always be enough on a pod, even with a terrible composition. The only way we know that though is by trying it which is something I haven't been seeing.

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I think it's definitely worth a try to have people go to the poison area below. I honestly have not been down there and have no idea what's taking place; other than mobs tromping back and forth waiting for an opportunity to ruin our day that is. Could the reason we don't do that be a numbers issue? You've already split the map into 3, then split each of those into 4 (3 pod teams and a boss team). Are there enough numbers for each lane to have 5 separate teams?

 

We also have to have people willing to do it as well. Seems commanders have hard enough time getting people to volunteer for the different teams as is. And since we can't have a map solely to TTS, we have the pug factor as well. So there's going to be some people who will do whatever they please or just go with what they are comfortable with and not be following what the commanders are saying. So again thinking it's a numbers issue perhaps why we aren't trying that as of yet.

 

As an aside, tried out circle strat today on a map with mostly pugs but a few tts as well. It seemed like it went faster overall, but with the frantic nature of it I really couldn't tell if we were succeeding or failing till we won. It also I guess took longer than it normally takes (?) and we had pugs just leave because of that alone. To me it seemed as if pods/preservers were going up constantly and the zerg kept getting split apart. Plus I had no idea the game could render so many mobs at once; which made it hard to target preservers. It was just a sea of chaos from my perspective. Sometimes it would be just the preserver, other times there would be 100 mobs crowding the preserver. It did give me a bit of a workout as a druid trying to keep the zerg's health up so that part was what I ended up focusing on the most.

 

Overall circle strat felt like I couldn't control the situation and those around me couldn't either. Everyone just running and hoping for the best; which is not really what I like to rely on when I'm playing the game. I guess that's why I defaulted to mostly healing as a way of thinking, well I can at least make sure this person doesn't die. I can keep topping off the health of those around me and that's something I can control about this.

 

Not to write off circle strat with just one experience. Maybe other times it goes smoother. I will probably end up trying it again with pugs just to see. But from my initial impressions I'm not a fan to say the least.

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