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[FEEDBACK WANTED] 10 Man Raids and TTS

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I personally love the idea of running "progressive vs training raids". I think it's the perfect compromise for players who may not be up to the challenge of raids, but want to "be better", and players who want to challenge themselves.  

However, I would hope that whichever leader(s)/commander(s) is coordinating progressive raids does not hinder anyone from joining based on skill level. I would be very disappointed if it was the same 10 person group always raiding together. Don't get me wrong, I think some responsibility falls on the individual to recognize  if they have x gear, or x amount of skill/time, and be willing to change traits if needed. But I hope that TTS etiquette is up to par when setting up a raid group. 

Edited by Celtic

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There is still some time before this hits us. I think it would be a good idea to use some of the current content to trail-run training in some of the hardest dungeons, like arah or coe. Check how leaders perform while they train ppl, and check how people learn stuff, tolerate failure, improve, etc.

I'm really interested in raiding, cant really take the role of a leader since I'm not 100% comfortable with my english (orally) since my accent do gets in the way, but since I'm really experienced managing teams (irl) and teaching I will be glad to help as much as I can.

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I believe teamspeak icons, as usual, can show a person's ability in the raids. That may be a good leader or just someone who is a good healer/tank/condi. (we already have one for condi but wurm is easy mode.) And no, I'm not addicted to icons. I can quit them at anytime.

I'm not the best person when it comes to making builds out of thin air. I usually go to meta build website. But a forum filled with exceptional builds for all the variety of positions would be amazing. But make sure that more than just one class can run a position. It is what made this game amazing in the first place. It didn't matter if you had 5 guardians, or 3 engineers and 2 rangers, any dungeon is possible with that combo. I want to see that in raids. Though a little more specialization may be required. And http://metabattle.com/wiki/MetaBattle_Wiki will always be there for us. It just isn't quite updated with our elite specializations.

Love the idea of introduction raids. It gives us the ability to educate the masses while still having a hard core group. I feel slightly bad about excluding people from raids because someone deemed them "Not Good Enough" but bad lvl 49-50 fractals have scorned me. 

But at the end of the day, remember that this is just a game. A game we really love. Don't let something as silly as raids ruin it for you.

 

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Honestly if we have around say 6 Raids teams per week (and that's a conservative estimate) even if each of them have a preferred team, there will probably be around 5-7 slots open for ringers to fill in when people can't make it, if you get 3 more people you can form another Raid team if those teams are full as well.

I'll also be doing my usual research and find new developments in how the meta is developing for Raids. It'll probably be in flux for months so I'll be able to find plenty of example builds to post.

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I was part of two raid groups during beta weekend, with multiple attempts per group. What I loved seeing was the collaboration, learning, and improvement. Each run got better and better, and guildies helping other guildies with builds etc. to optimize team performance was really cool to see. (insert thankful shoutout here to those who informed me patiently that high toughness isn't a good idea unless you want to be a tank ;) ).

One thing I would like to steer away from is giving the impression that there will be some sort of elite. I feel that a willingness to learn and change builds and play style is necessary for raids, just as it is for arah or lvl 50 fractals. That flexibility is necessary to success, especially in raids, because they are difficult and everyone needs to pull their weight. That being said, raids are perfect for us because we are all about conquering challenging content as a group!  And what is more challenging than raids?

If people aren't willing to step up to the challenge and learn from their mistakes and try to improve/change things, then perhaps raids aren't their thing. But if they are willing to put in the effort to change their build and playstyle as the group needs, then they should definitely have a place in a raiding group in which to learn. You can only become an elite player through learning from mistakes.

I guess in order to clarify my random thoughts above, I feel like especially in the early phases of raiding, most people would be in the "learning" group. And I feel like every group should try to succeed. I feel like, especially later on, in a "learning" group some people won't even bother to put in the effort in the first place because they might feel it is basically a waste of time. This could frustrate the people who are actually willing to learn/ put in effort but are just not familiar enough with raids to be in a progressive squad.

Edited by Valkyrie Skyqueen

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I was part of two raid groups during beta weekend, with multiple attempts per group. What I loved seeing was the collaboration, learning, and improvement. Each run got better and better, and guildies helping other guildies with builds etc. to optimize team performance was really cool to see. (insert thankful shoutout here to those who informed me patiently that high toughness isn't a good idea unless you want to be a tank ;) ).

One thing I would like to steer away from is giving the impression that there will be some sort of elite. I feel that a willingness to learn and change builds and play style is necessary for raids, just as it is for arah or lvl 50 fractals. That flexibility is necessary to success, especially in raids, because they are difficult and everyone needs to pull their weight. That being said, raids are perfect for us because we are all about conquering challenging content as a group!  And what is more challenging than raids?

If people aren't willing to step up to the challenge and learn from their mistakes and try to improve/change things, then perhaps raids aren't their thing. But if they are willing to put in the effort to change their build and playstyle as the group needs, then they should definitely have a place in a raiding group in which to learn. You can only become an elite player through learning from mistakes.

I guess in order to clarify my random thoughts above, I feel like especially in the early phases of raiding, most people would be in the "learning" group. And I feel like every group should try to succeed. I feel like, especially later on, in a "learning" group some people won't even bother to put in the effort in the first place because they might feel it is basically a waste of time. This could frustrate the people who are actually willing to learn/ put in effort but are just not familiar enough with raids to be in a progressive squad.

 

Well partial progression isn't useless in a Raid like a Dungeon. From what I read, there's a weekly reset time at around Monday and if you beat one boss and return later, you can return to the Raid again and continue from where you left off.

 

So in the "Training days" we can start off newbies in the Raid and try to progress them as far as possible and later they can return on the "progression" day and continue in their group from the Training day to finish when they left off or agree to meet another day later in the week again.

Edited by Light Guardian Jack

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Inevitably, static groups will form and will be a huge potential source of dramatic clashes. How will this be addressed? I believe it is unrealistic to say this won't be a problem, but the bottom line is that those that are able to progress will presumably like to continue to progress for the sake of finishing content. That is, if Group A is doing well, they will likely keep going as Group A until they are done all the content. This, of course, doesn't mean they won't be a part of any other groups for raiding (depending on how the lockout works) but it's hard to say at this point. Once they complete content, they may either try to optimize & min/max, or share their knowledge with other groups.

In either case, there will be a gap that is filled with resentment. From those progressing well, the resentment may be that they have to "carry" people. From those not progressing well, the resentment may be that they are not "included" and that those that are progressing are elitist. In my view, there is really no way of preventing this from happening. While the system proposed is sound from a theoretical perspective, I am not sure how it will work in practice. For one, progressive raid members and learning raid members are not mutually exclusive pools. Group A, in my example above, may raid at a certain time, and those very members may well teach at another time. But that requires community spirit on the part those with the knowledge, and it requires a certain level of respect and attentiveness from those that are not progressing as quickly. This dynamic, however, can (and will) lead to the kind of resentment and drama I mention above.

The solution, I believe, is transparent scheduling using the prog/teach groupings and potentially some understanding that x hours progressing raids should be accompanied by x * % hours of teaching on the part of the LEADER of the raids. This is, at best, an interim solution. Groups that do well may try to shirk their responsibility of teaching by under-reporting their actual raid progress or hours spent. They may also choose not to take on any ringers if their 10 are missing, which will certainly accelerate the resentment; but on the flip side, making groups take on ringers for the sake of being inclusive may very well cause them to go off-grid and do raids on their own terms, rather than TTS' terms.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the matter for now. Luckily, we still have some time to figure it out.

Edited by Jacobbs
Added in a few points.

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Naturally, it'll be a fine balance between ensuring fairness and progression. At the end of the day I trust our raid leaders to make the right decisions, whether they're current leaders or community raid leaders. There's no single process which will inevitably solve this problem without making some compromise and everyone needs to understand that. 

On a side note, all raid leaders will be expected to run training raids alongside their progressive raids. 

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I'll echo Jacobbs' concerns.  I really don't like the term (or implementation) of "static", since that tends to imply closed groups where the same people run together all the time, with perhaps spot replacements for unavailabilties but generally a set group.  This leads to an insular and cliquish situation and people inevitably competing to get into X's group or Y's group, and the leftovers ending up in Z's group.  If the groups are fluid and everyone gets a chance to run with various raid leaders there is a lot less resentment over "getting into" a particular group.  This also leads to a greater likelihood of drama as personality conflicts within set groups arise.  Most people can deal with individuals they don't mesh with in one raid, but if they know they are stuck with that person for the duration of many raids it can go from a minor annoyance to a major issue.

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That's typically how every community I've been in has handled raiding situations. However, it does encourage the formation of 'cliques' which means actually becoming part of the progressive groups is suddenly next to impossible. That being said, TTS is massive, so I imagine there will be several of each group sort of thing. This is both good and bad as it may lead to 'the best' sticking together and leaving the rest out in the cold. However, I have no real idea how raiding in GW2 works, I think they said something about once a week rewards? If that's the case it mightn't be as bad.

Having actually read through this thread it's refreshing to see that I'm not the only one concerned about this. I'm relatively new to TTS and I would hate to be denied a spot in a progressive group due to having just joined and not knowing anyone (the sheer number of people in TS makes someone like myself awkward, normally I'm quite vocal in TS, honest!). I think it would be quite hard to manage a community of this volume with rotations and I can inevitably see some sort of priority system given how easy it is to sign up.

Edited by Tragrim
You will never know.

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I really like the concept of a learning and progressive nights. Have you decided how often each will run and if they will run at the same night/time?

Current thinking is that training raids will be scheduled similar to dungeon nights. Progressive will be based on raid leader availability

Concerning static stuff

Yes cliques are bad. However like i said above, there's a fine balance that needs to be maintained. We'll probably end up with something akin to a rotating roster where people will be rotated in and out of groups. 

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About this clique concern keep in mind how massive we are. 

There is a good chance that a couple groups that prefer each other form but keep in mind just because there's 3-4 groups that always full up with members who know each doesn't mean that suddenly we'll be unable to make any new groups that learn with each other at the same rate. TTS has around 3000 members right now I think that number was around 5000 in our prime and we're likely to increase in size yet again with this expansion. I estimate this will translate to a lot of Raid groups forming and that learning night will translate to players forming new 10 man groups at around their skill level with a couple veterans maybe helping them out. 

We'll also have members (like me! :D) who are devoted to figuring out the cutting edge of new theorycrafting ideas for how to clear the Raid ensuring that there should be tons of different ways to clear a Raid even with it's steep requirement similiar to how our Reflect and Condi teams work now.

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So... this is quickly approaching.  Have any leaders given any thought to applications, etc.?  Will there be one big application, a la Raven's speed Teq sign up, or will each leader allow for application submissions?  Will we apply for a type of position (e.g. I have a mesmer main, so I apply as 'pure dps prime, condi secondary') or simply present what we are capable of bringing to the raid (e.g. I have a mesmer with full chrono, ranger with full druid, etc.)? 

 

Has anyone given any thought to play style preference?  For example, if I'm the kind of raider that does better on a TS-clear with single raid leader, I might under-perform on a chatty group that wants to joke and relax during the fights.  Can we include data like that in the applications?

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ATM it basically boils down to people flagging themselves as progressive or learning and then showing interest on a post when a particular leader posts that they are leading training or progressive and training raids.  Different leaders will have different requirements/expectations so read their posts carefully and find the right fit for you when they go up.

So it doesn't become a popularity contest we will prob have google forms on the posts so you can indicate interest that way.

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Since this is more of a traditional raid, it could be good for people with previous raid leading experience to note this on their google forms too. Then we can have as many raid groups happening as possible, not just dependent on the number of TTS leaders online.

 

For example, I'd write that I used to Main Tank and Raid Lead in WoW, so I'm happy to put my hand up to lead a group (any style).

 

I also read somewhere (citation needed) that you'll be able to repeat each boss/encounter as much as you want, but you'll only get "major loot" once per week. So if you've done boss 1, you could still get some value out of helping another group clear it for the first time. I guess we'll need to wait to see how that actually works out mechanically though, since people may not want to "erase their progression"

Edited by Wickfish

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I got to ask before I some like a fool. What are the required consumables for raids or all runs?

 

I was searching through the forum but only found this

 

But if not sure if that is applicable for raids or what not?

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I had a question about what Merf posted in the Raid signup topic. If a commander wanted to setup a progressive raid, how would we know who was on the list as commanders? 

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38 minutes ago, RQNinja said:

I got to ask before I some like a fool. What are the required consumables for raids or all runs?

 

I was searching through the forum but only found this

 

But if not sure if that is applicable for raids or what not?

 

Consumables for raids will mean weapon consumables ( sharpening stones / crystals etc) and food. You can't use any other consumables in raids.

 

Just now, Celtic said:

I had a question about what Merf posted in the Raid signup topic. If a commander wanted to setup a progressive raid, how would we know who was on the list as commanders? 

 

There'll be a related post about commanders in the next 24 hours. 

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